welcome voices raviki 'm excited today today uh uh fourth series uh 'm zevi slavin seekers unity uh 've got uh one great pleasures getting know zevi uh would swim around thoughts thinking 's 's really wonderful uh 've going back forth uh round one channel uh seekers unity 'll put links video round two voices reiki 've done round three back channel round four um completion uh since 's agreement also advertise uh zevi guy sandstock going also series uh relationship mystical experience um idea logos voice reason call reason um 're gon na pivotal figure around work martin buber course 'll related figures doubt coming like spinoza 's always lurking um 'm excited 's gon na 're gon na start uh uh filming recording n't know verb soon preliminary aside zevi 's great 'm really looking forward conversation today 's pleasure john back 's really really pleasure 's 's great encountering thought thinking series totally mind-shattering also community surrounding thinkers 've managed pull gravitational wave really excellent actually got talking guys got talking spoke two hours today um 'm still much tingling excitement conversation things thrown really really great sort inter-conversational dialogic happening b


point made 's sort sociopolitical critique let 'm epistemological point first normalism idea right 's real patterns world 's right 're made mind everything constructed 's deep problem actually ca n't actually explain um get universal generalizations also 's argument would want make presupposes profound kind ontological dualism 're saying n't real patterns world real patterns mind right connections exist somewhere exist means mind somehow fundamentally different reality gets dualism gives skepticism gives like 's means thing 's actually intelligible mind means mind 's solipsism whole thing collapses unsigned reverse 's best explanation existence science 's world actually intelligible means real patterns means reject nominalism commits really deep kind cartesian dualism human kind skepticism ca n't even listen undermines claims science 're trying make kind move um would make epistemic dimension sociopolitical one okay sorry think think 's helpful make think people may feeling objections rising um whether 're trained enough well-read enough understand know metaphysics relying upon critiques relying upon know know 's 's difference camp 're going accept anonymous opinion 's room debate even provide language someone 's 's know feeling


ntellect real um someone someone think think also meets political social social speak fascination deification human right means human becoming real right 's 's future means yeah yeah based think real 's mean become many ancient civilizations emperor pharaoh became god became deified deification individual 's defeation power power makes makes god sets pyramid structure society powerful closest real peasants bottom dispensable 're 're far real hierarchy think think think think question important see emerging within sort moving speak tradition moving prophetic message jewish messianic jewish mystical message think deeply connected phenomenologically conceptually historically prophet comes tell people think predominant theory power real um think today 's world also lot purchase real today status celebrity money social media influence real god days exactly exactly seen tv show called um american gods something something becomes salient public 's mind mythological character bursts yeah sort battle new gods come imagine like god tic-tock taking god youtube um really happens meaningful


sense historically think prophets jewish mystics 're fighting god power association real powerful think promote instead argumentation still gesturing towards answer n't think yet answering question argue kindness love concern real 's phenomenologically 're act service kindness feel fulfilled present alive real god imitate god matatoday means explicit talmud way god merciful shall shall kind forgiving repeated islamic literature takes shoot bunch christian literature firstly notion identifying co-identifying real divine aspiration human individually sociologically societally um allows us frame goals directions think think 's perhaps last conversation kept trying um wedge domain becomes think supremacy extended form cognition realization insert necessity ethical loving kind caring um think 's 's true phenomenologically um much 's true metaphysically question convergence modes place realness love power presence knowledge converge one space um n't know like 's really really great question intuition mystical uh realization experience monolithic thing every human brain complex 's many ways instantiates manifests appears


become conscious say 's one um form n't like sort facile typologies done people like stace zayn yeah 's think 's waste time really begin explore phenomenological cognitive scientific level texture experience becoming real life experience inactively transformative mystical experience phrase important stress much going forward life compel one real also indicative real experience yeah um n't answer question intuition 's multi-varied complex 's elements one another maybe sort space converge may sort n't like game better worse ultimate lesser mis 's 's 's great game uh 's done 's 's agenda promote one sort thing try avoid 's 's 's 's 's fascinating question 's gesturing towards answer thank n't pay enough attention n't take enough care around potential side effect intended trying create simplistic reductionist taxonomy trying get something else know 's work 'm well work 've already done also emerged dialogue right know theory understanding one distinctions knowledge understanding knowledge evidence justifies claims knowledge ability grasp significance apply problems know problems broadly control distinction 's sort emerged se


parately uh within philosophy science psychology uh explanation understanding 're converging together um one one criticisms 've made theory cognitive scientific theory wisdom n't proper theory understanding within 've trying think understanding know one great privileges get try ideas students give feedback um one things like make distinction also made independently monica delta psychologist making use psychological work john keeks distinction calls uh descriptive interpretive knowledge 's basically description knowledge understanding ask people general know wisdom knowledge understanding almost universally say understanding lot understanding knowledge yes think know stuff 've argued elsewhere enhancement capacity relevance realization etc 've talked proposed idea said like know original meaning proposition propose right propose idea 're talking understanding talk know grasping significance within particular kind knowing like know understand acts grasp know implications proposition 's standard definition way understanding um know talk know really understand skill transfer new situation important martial arts take dojo onto street really get really get right see 's kind understanding within kind knowing said n't case


's kind understanding 's kinds knowing grasp significance participatory knowing perspectival knowing perspectival knowing proposition get basically get positive manifold grasping significance propose idea eyes light go yeah 's say almost say like 's proof anything know intelligibility idea right almost always say yeah 's wise person wise person n't individual ones probably degree manifold manifold understanding know grasp significance within kinds knowing even importantly kinds knowing know experiment ran lab mystical experience meaning life showed insight component mystical experience heavy lifting contributing meaning life yes um know insight know improvement understanding insight 're changing relevance evidence right uh typically right yeah 're making new connections 's 's basis question like seems like know 've got least empirical evidence insight component mystical experience contributing lot enhanced transformative potential meaning life potential insight seems know powerful kind understanding deepest kind understanding much circumstantial argument 'm aware 's argument 'm trying share thinking 'm trying say know mysticism seems least empirical evidence seems profoundest kinds uh insight profoundest kind enhancement understanding


ndependently 's great evidence 's least beginnings anecdotal evidence right know deepest kind understanding manifold understanding people willing seem pretty universal saying 's kind understanding wise person 'm trying get argument n't trying n't want try reduce anything like 'm trying get right okay 'll weaken question think critique valid um could least cognitive dimension mystical experience insight powerful insight strong manifold kind multi-dimensional unity kinds knowing brings profound kind understanding would deeply transformative individuals 's 's 's hypothesis want put forward gave chance revise made good critique 's 's 'm 'm trying inc get inkling towards yeah yeah 's 's 's really 's really really 's like pinpointed question want begin saying um based something said 's correlation idea also emerges jewish tradition strongly 's strong correlation necessary correlation wisdom humility yeah yeah want humility say thinking space epistemology even writ lodge thinking much um religious metaphysical want want begin saying 'm 's pleasure engage thinking 'm 'm 'm like punching beyond weight space fun good humidity hope 'm discourteous n't n't want n't want put kind disadvantage 's 's 's 's 's great 's gre


challenge think anything beyond areas comfort appreciate challenge thank um share perhaps um wan na wan na wan na comment phenomenological side meaningfulness insight insight also theoretical side 'll bring jewish mystical theoretical perspective share 'll 'll 'll give jewish side first within within center um conceptual upper apparatus jewish mystical system spherot think would fascinating way 's framed particularly hasidic tradition spherot simultaneously shape morphology three things psyche world reality god three things simultaneously right um spirit ten um 10 things 10 attributes 10 modalities 10 energy whatever however translate 's definitive translation um map three think 's resonant thinking 's happening 's happening happening 's three-way direction 's sort really map introduction first threat divided uh two horizontally vertically yeah um 's also different 's 's spheroid based said earlier 's 's 's divine straight light street rotten circle throat combine two tree life formation everyone knows right right 's 's basically crystalline structure emerges initial first shattering periodic instantiation like rich difficult uh metaphors important meaning 'm working expound um crystalline uh tree structure


throughout surrounding divided left right center um masculine feminine integration um 's also top middle bottom right um bottom expression speech middle um f feeling internally processed emotions top three uh cognitive intellectual motion literally brain divine know god mind god man god world um first three surat counting quetta sort beyond threat um know terms 're familiar discuss data particularly series um give give sort one hour class give two second definition um recommend want learn audience 're else interested please check uh one word inside 's flash inspiration 's 're walking darkness forest see nothing lightning comes second everything illuminated right second 's yod 's 's 's literally point 's small infinitesimal uh bina hey 's expansion 's feminine 's 's womb 's begin take seed give limbs give shape give dimension analyze 's analysis 's 's 's 's ability think past future n't exist flash 's dot assume know audience listening dot integration two yeah channeling 's embodiment 's 's moving emotions 's feel tishkis anthropomorphically put neck 's 's also bottleneck things stay mind n't get body heart n't pass oh 's interesting yeah 're


're literally constrained neck pharaoh villains torah associated different psychological sort uh challenging melees pharaoh neck pharaoh one stops things coming really well yes um point wanted get elaborate introduction part complexity foreign structure within rod interrelationship points 's 's 's understanding 's internalization really 's interrelativity um 's 's one um bit longer month jewish year actually going counting omar spirot 49 days 's seven times seven well every single day look one things one day look us next week week bina beginning bina whole process wow sort without getting specifics pointing direction thought explicated jewish kabbalists hundreds years ago may professing 'd like look fascinating 's cool well 've mean discussions 've really piqued interest kevin uh 's 's uh like said point uh would like discussion connections alluded maybe full-blown discussion 'll take look video first course know connections spinoza yeah yes joseph pivotal figure maybe could come back uh uh discussion uh spinoza context see spinoza wrestling spinoza much heroic figure uh one thing 's socratic philosophy uh theoretical transformative 's 's like socrates


's aspiring blessed life life blessedness right best possible life human um 's 's 's philosophy sense pierre haddow uh 's personally courageous heroic way socrates yes uh even enemies admit virtuous uh virtuous virtuous individual 're 's whereas find people like madness distasteful n't like pay attention liveness person independent yeah right fact used bus one favorite sins uh mind uh 's 's aside okay spinoza 's 's good choice 's also exemplary figure precisely recapitulates within heart scientific revolution 's 's know 's think 's better call disciple descartes course significant innovator cartesian many ways heart scientific revolution right 's basically taking ancient project good life 's trying put back think could think reasonable given ontology could call naturalistic framework um um stands 'm glad 's going revival right stands one contentious know anything say spinoza 's like anything say jesus nazareth socrates 're going get 10 people disagreeing right stands epitome somebody within naturalistic framework still nevertheless proposing something deeply continuous entire socratic neoplatonic tradition 's even mystical component 've argued agree argument 's within scientific revolution within naturalistic framework think 's also proposing um uh would argue kind non-theism alternative uh seeking get beyond um know many people time uh know th


ubts areas come 's think 's helpful case made say well 're 're 're saying n't buy n't buy even mean n't time fully sketch rejection every every metaphysics every personality 're rejecting well leads combinatory explosion least point basic boundaries thinking 's right mean 'll one like said meant exhausted know idea 's constructed um well requires uh knowledge mind able construct things 's self-constructed well oh oh real knowledge 's way minds work order claim constructivism true get unmediated non-constructed knowledge mind tell different knowledge get world get get get infinite regress ultimately defend kind nominalism get argument 've made point positions largely taken granted actually subject powerful critiques want read depth great analytic rigor read berman 's book uh 'm gon na give gist reject socio-political people directed funding kind fucoin thing yeah denying say influenced saying influenced empirical evidence addition scientists judge things terms plausibility independent funding issues uh course 're affected side bias show 's independent thing work goes something want talk later call reason 's


ere 's 're still living rain shadow religious wars 're trying get beyond 's clearly spinoza 's mind um 's 's exemplary figure go back look uh promise holds giving us significant clues right 're sort maybe end scientific revolution 's sort coming know 's 's become established world use look spinoza way helping wake ways world view ontologically existentially um rightly point ethically aesthetically um insufficient inaccurate think spinoza holds real possibility somebody could deeply rational deeply mystical deeply naturalistic uh deeply etc etc etc um know 've done quite bit work spinoza maybe could point extended discussion around sort spinoza light meaning crisis might way yeah 'd like talk yeah would love conversation um spinoza hero well um relate uh many ways personally someone also grew restrictive jewish community um someone also challenged think independently someone also autoduct um yeah many many points simple narrative level feel uh much kindred spirit compare man stature um 's 's definitely something great conversation wanted previous question two points wanted cover one theoretical one phenomenological oh um please yeah 'd allow 'd allow something um feel 's like rubbing


theory general yeah um know appreciate 'll share um would love would love talk spinners really would think 's nose huge exemplary inaudible yeah yeah exactly exactly 's exemplary also within specific nexus yeah emergence scientific revolution yes yes yes absolutely absolutely um terms terms phenomenology meaning emerges mystical experience least postulating emerges form uh understanding n't know n't want actually um straw man misrepresent position said 'm gon na 'm gon na try repeat understood 's something happens 's 's 's internal cognizing human sees internal structure thinking reflective co-creating coaching reality meaning generating apparatus um feeling listening lectures um addition addition good feelings learning challenged um reading literature mysticism means mystics describing experiences means historically contemporaneously people continues happen reading analysis um scholars looking study philosophies reading theoreticians within traditions would ask phenomenologically fact people come experience describe inherently meaningful synchronous 's 's 's given ask causing say would jumped conclusion would said something different um would


'm sure exactly articulate maybe together yeah yeah yeah think something mentioned mentioned well think think stressed 's 's sense inherent um rightness place n't want use word order um things good 's 's 's 's christian uh female mystery says knowledge joe watch well shall well comes experience knowing um 's 's deep sense knowing well 's good 's okay sense think integrated discuss 's salaciously poem eckhart 's 's non-natively logical mode 's 's blessing flower blesses think said correlate expansion universe think meaningful collapses distinction means ends means present self becomes end act becomes meaningful thing think 's much grounded body say e body really body least 's 's moments intimacy intimacy worship erotic intimacy intimacy nature one sitting releases narratives self allows 'm 'm sort grappling poetry n't know express non-poetic oh 's fair 's fair 's good um kind clear 's 's 's something happens cognitively even cognitive writ lodge even even way 's something muc


h fully ontological know say cognitive oncological like n't know keep like pushing 's 's much 's 's 's 's trouble anywhere 'm going say word 've already sort co-opted like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah 's kishkas individual everything perfect 's beautiful 's yeah 's 's could well 's good mean touched last time yes get sense although uh 're responsive answer found answer still insufficient 're still rubbing 'll recapitulate said maybe way trying get 's like helping refine want said like say cognition 'm talking cognition 'm talking computation brain 'm talking like full body involved participatory knowing way 're enacting embedded world right uh know acknowledge deeply embodied deeply embedded 's deep continuity cognition biology argued explicitly yeah 'm taught 'm talking manifold 'm talking 'm talking something 's going like know 's going link uh know 's going leak downward towards know biological principles running individual cells upward outward upward know ligaments sinews world view 're getting sort fundamental prince patterns intelligibility 's 's 'm talking want want say um sorry 'm trying box 'm trying make clear uh 'm saying think talk reciprocal opening 's 's co-created


world us 's 's like resist empiricism inward romanticism outward um 'm definitely romantic saying 're projecting meaning onto world 'm definitely empiricist saying 're simply consuming uh take think 's 's 'm sympathetic 's 'm sympathetic hear think hear say like sense autonomy sense people find realness inherently valuable way transcends aesthetic epistemic moral value willing onto normativity willing totally transform existence get conform somehow intrinsically word word quite right 's good plato 's sense good right 's good current moral consumatory sense good yes getting closer yeah yeah let let let let let maybe point like fraser pointed way use something quite um esoteric transcendent transformative experience something mundane relatable think moment um let 's say loving sexual intimacy right experience many people know 's sense moment like thing matters existence went forever would fine existence moment would would would sufficient particularly deep um sort deep interperson space conjure agree totally mean remember series explicitly talk final moment ultimately stoicism sits point joy joy pleasure exactly moment say live forever die tomorrow n't 's difference yes 's exactly point yes okay let ask would describe experience co


gnitive experience way 're using cognition yes okay think ultimate well sorry 'll careful think cognition ultimately connectedness uh seeking kind optimality think n't explicitly argue argument higher states consciousness n't moment connectedness connectedness per se reach optimal state people get variations continuum flow state moments core cognitive get couple reality way okay guess 'm going keep trying work familiarize language way 're using words point feel like 's sort semantic linguistic blockage coming could could maybe welcome 'd great 's great friends realize 're actually disagreement um could also friendly disagreement could point maybe hm n't know might putting words mouth apologize ahead time um think 's experience requires cognitive agent like moment point would n't exist without sentient cognitive agents agree 100 percent okay okay yes okay okay let 's 's funny actually bit personal morning woke staying bed thinking day kind like thinking looking forward end day 's night outside looking forward talking thinking running head conversation one enjoyably thought let try sort um take embody john 's form


reaching towards 's continuing towards transcendent transforming experience least maybe way understand began sort move towards sort phenomenology flow experience mind wrong like existential posture moving towards 'm sitting better want move towards conceptualize transformative mystical experience planned getting know 7am least like space stop day good foot 's nothing mind flow state language around mind simply trying silent trying bizarre mysterious word body present nothing flowy nothing nothing n't seem n't seem move continuum phase 's personal anecdotal reflection yeah well mean think maybe draw close 've two hours um 's usually much beyond voices verviki um think 's valuable point um try make uh um like let let try give quick analogy um work 'm publishing dan chappie think 's 's 's genus problem 're posing okay remember talked vr sense presence yes 're invoking something like sense presence 're describing think 's fair okay proposal get uh vr one students uh uh gary avahannasen actually proposed gives people sense presence virtual reality flow state seems plausible 's similar like people get flow state get sense presence tetris like 're n't look like world okay 's


plausible 's good paper think points important thing 's thing problem dan dan chappie wrestling 're scientists use rovers mars get sense mars rover 's way getting flow state time delay 's joystick control 're getting batches photos 're using imagine imagine rover actually enact rover n't know 've seen right 're stuff 's way 's flow state 're nevertheless getting presents okay argument made right 's think flow state like get language continuum misleading sometimes means right idea fluency insight flow state ways sort expanding scope optimal grip necessarily always translate 's happening scientists getting flow state 're using anthropomorphizing rover 're technomorphizing get participatory relationship even say weird magical things like 'll say things know gardening right wrist got stuck went lab spirit 's right wheel stuck well n't know 's kind weird sympathy laugh 're scientists n't know okay 'm 'm 'm 'm countenancing metaphysical claims 'm pointing 's phenomenological experience 's pronounced right 's clear 's flow state 're getting kind 're getting powerful sense identification 's effective 's 's 's distributed kind optimal grip trying get think mystical experiences


enhanced flowy experiences 've get tai chi right definitely get tai chi right 's 'm trying say every mystical experience like 'm saying mystical experience kind meta optimal grip 's optimal grip optimal gripping n't one 's requiring serp know know tremendous amount metabolical metabolic effort anything like right 's sense n't know using words rather gestures love way love use gestures much non-verbal 'm first time like thank first time 'm actually beginning get sense texture 're describing 's beginning resonate know uh mysticism right experience literature helpful described insight moment thank well 're welcome fair started prose cognitive continuum much quantitative difference work dan know rovers mars came realization 's something within flow 's carried necessarily flow experience per se said get mystical experiences superflow taoist practices afford um taoism religion flow many ways right also acknowledge n't think 's necessary feature necessary feature meta optimal gripping typically use might appreciate given morning experience use metaphor taking stance martial art okay 'm actually moving take stance 'm absolutely still point 's useless thing 's n't fight right stance 's meta-optimal g


rip 'm getting place think think like possibility space 's moves need make 's place puts sort optimally equally distant 's mean meta-optimal grip 's analogy think 's maybe 's coincidence 's analogy 's actually state stillness yes yes um murder somehow 's merger stillness motion coexist space curiosity formulating continuum hypothesis done conjunction hood 's work uh form continuum mean part suey generous convergence argument found newberg newberg something enlightenment changes brain um uh think fear 'm misquoting forget second author book actually proposes cognitive continuum person using sort foil contrast already proposed published 2018 continuum fluency insight flow starting experimental work mystical experience also seeing evidence insight machinery fundamentally work yeah yeah mean 'd curious personally know sort 're another time end 're mean theorists trying sort explain thing cognitively scientifically people like um arthur dankman would know things 'd curious know thoughts general find experiments really really great want um mean 're hoster 'll 'll bring things end 'll allow wrote question least want put um think 's important one hopeful


voice reason something somehow cuts [ __ ] um 's exactly um something think could make increasingly good case um like typically happens people want skeptical stuff n't like skeptical problem arguments start right sort let go tend consume everything scientists motivated uh uh know money uh make progress discover things like n't something valuable money given like get weird circles things like denying undermine nominalism constructivism say 's independent faculty uh assessing plausibility terms intelligibility things think least discharge um criticisms enough move feel 's fair yeah feel like 's 's going need reliance upon principle like plausibility reject um might bit tricky 's 's might seen begging question um well want try give justification plausibility n't want treat primitive want try explain okay good yeah need trust yeah think think think well want add order function um needs also limits skepticism play game absolute skepticism 's done ancient greeks human ever uh 're living functioning human beings mean sleep drink eat function um think maturity recognizing mental arithmetics skepticism done shopping good things fun want


ly 'll see something future get chance talk may please please okay um 's way wrote um said rightly lectures propositions useless n't propositional knowing 's participatory transformation n't secret metaphysical knowledge 's getting wise practices transformation um combining best science best metaphysics beautiful way put um see higher visible states consciousness afford us must confuse rationality wisdom rationale knowledge brilliant great great line um idea mystical experiences n't impart actual accurate propositional knowledge say think say rightfully leads kinds weird inconsistent strange conclusions people thinking kinds strange things um want try propose um may sort knowing come experience justified think think william james others describe noetic property knowledge think think knowledge emerges reduce proposition simply proposition everything one um put agent um identified made one arena question 's bit long question primary illusion uh humans hold refer must transcend um 're one without everything around us transcending limiting self-conception con sort good things come eradication jealousy reason care intimacy others wisdom see illusion live one everything around us reality sense p


roposition proposition one proposition enact think make make final point think value trying distill proposition convergence mystical experiences traditions worthwhile endeavor even granted knowledge gnosis never put true propositional form 's categorically beyond reason 's still valuable try something like hope peaceful coexistence humanity us natural world internally need truth meta-narrative story myth live better truth better myth proposition fundamentally okay well uh let 'll um wo n't completely answer 'll give preliminary thing promise either channel channel 'll 'll discussion around topic 've got least two things 've got spinoza talk 've got one awesome uh mean mention thing know like neoplatonism know theory theoretic practices independent mean standalone argument n't depend mystical experience fact 's debate integra know gerson others debate much mystical experience needed uh plato 's argument know gerson says 's denying mystical component thinks argument stand argument 's 's 's 's thinking model independent uh account ontology um find course try seek part manifold try seek consonant uh best theories best theory sometimes put um uh allowing role


theoria impact constrain ontology uh 's still maybe want 's fine yeah one thing want say notion intelligibility understanding think think core neoplatonism comes understanding presupposes reality ultimately one understanding right originally interstanding turned understanding 's related sub-stance word play understanding always 's bunch things 's unity 's bunch 's unity unities 's scientists without realizing seeking grand unifying theory right 's presupposition reality comports right think neoplatonism 's argument understanding use understanding cognitive act intelligibility property world 're co-determining think polar elements within shared phenomena right understanding intelligibility pre uh presupposes monism william james way 's 'd disagreement james james thought 've always 've always found problematic james think spinozy gives pounding arguments right like two things 've got third thing explains relation etc unifying thing ultimate argue think 's classic neoplatonic insight 'm going give qualified thing 's still going satisfy hope feel 's least moving uh like 're getting movement right mystical experience gives kind understanding talking earlier understanding presupposes kind monism connection mysticism driving understanding metaphysics supports understanding


der exist yeah 's 's 's really really really really exciting um avenue explore think connects discussions question espinoza question um never mentioned feeling propositions best derived experience theory 'm 'm strong component 're saying would love get 's really something 'm working say best case best metaphysical case um 's 's 's awesome thank 're great 's 's book nicholas maxwell pleasure meet talks uh comprehensibility universe fundamental presupposition science yes yes berman making brilliant case science depends sort platonic forms uh brilliant book brilliant tightly argued current anyways let 's call let 's call quits uh 're john paul start thing n't end anything 're abandoning 's convenient wonderful thank much coming part two maybe 'll ping pong back maybe go back part three come back part four 'll 'll four-part series maybe call something like philosophy cogsi mysticism something like 're trying get know 're coming different angles 're reach enough towards get think get logos play things emerge um yes john want say thank graciousness humbleness dialogue mean 'm 'm probably young enough child official standing recognition 'm guy 's interested topic picked books started reading


n willingness engage seriously respectfully uh equals conversation astounding absolutely like even nothing handled conversation fact willingness engage good faith um think uh inspiration many future god willing uh mean thoroughly enjoyed able really 's 's 's rare get actually talk level topics anyone um disciplines bring ones 'm totally unaware real grounding sciences experimentation philosophy 's much fun hope one day get sit person well would love would love much would great spend extended time uh person together think know know dear logos constituent components serious play talked serious play already um 's serious play 's also um well like feel coming insights dialogue gotten um get places got places could n't get two two defining characteristics logo um thank much thank said um aspire uh um socratic ideal aspire happens feel grateful often happens likely aristotelian fashion train habit become virtue uh thank thank excellent partner thank 're going keep going 'll keep um wonderful yes discussion needs happen know deep discussion know really carefully thought ration


ally reflective appraisal appreciation mystic mysticism mystical absolutely sort best cutting-edge cognitive science yes think 's conversation needs happening right agree agree agree uh 'm honored partaking well 're going talk soon friend thank


unless 're going sort embrace real metaphysics skeptic live life mean fun want want sort sort conventional way living thinking also understanding criteria um ride beyond radical skepticism think something 're proposing yeah 's 'm proposing perform think good reason skeptic give take seriously propositional contradiction take seriously performative contradiction propositional contradiction 's contradiction two propositions performative contradiction 's contradiction propositions assert behavior whether 's reflective behavior practical behavior privilege like privilege pay attention think whitehead right take performative contradiction seriously james made argument william james seriously propositional contradiction burden proof skeptic care first second pointed even pyro even pyro could n't live kind complete skepticism even though extremely virtuous man yeah 's 's 's interesting point 's 's great point uh hope one day get talk spinoz context performatively showing atheism could done virtuously 's 's 's interesting point yeah 're going reject propositional contradiction also reject perform contradiction yeah 's well taken especially think 've argued elsewhere even series propositional knowing yes relations propositional knowing procedural perspectival participatory


matter well okay let 's say 've established 've already made reference 've made plausible real thing real normative standard called plausibility plausibility goes work 'm currently work 've done leo farrar past work 'm currently book 'm writing son uh jason braviki uh let give uh basic idea want try show judgment instances judgments made even within sort hard-nosed scientific journal articles okay um 'm going trying give credit idea comes wrestler see also current um work cognitive psychology cognitive uh cognitive science idea uh convergence idea uh many independent lines evidence argument converge conclusion conclusion want use wrestler 's words think 's perfect conclusion becomes trustworthy think 's right word let explain abstract 'll give concrete example make clear matter channel 're 've given arguments last time right channel going subject bias distortion chances different independent channels share bias reduced precisely number channels bring independent convergence confidence significantly reduced chance conclusion construct produced bias let give example goes little kids even small children prefer information multi-sensor multi-central like come multiple senses rather singular like get philosophical criticism judge real something see something see touch something


see hear something see hear touch answer well prefer see hear touch 's preference beyond seeing right well chances distortions sight touch hearing right reduced fact 're 's reduced precisely proportionally number independent channels bring bear 's prefer multimodal intersensory information little kids small children right 's adaptive 's trustworthy trustworthy n't mean certain conclusive means 's worthy trust bias reduced way 's 're fascists scientists like numbers like numbers allow like see three touch three one three hear three three allows coordinate inter-sensory information 's numbers tend give sense realness okay first make sense idea 'm 'm looking convergence gives trustworthiness yeah think helpful think think 's helpful precisely elucidates way think n't necessarily know think way think think 're saying intuitive um 's like oh yeah 's 'm looking convergence 'm looking coverage precisely reason um 's 's 's 's precise 's 's persuasive precisely 's novel 's 's 's 's opening internal mechanisms go thinking well general right thank saying like said 's lots good empirical evidence fact people look look um let clear 're talking careful even 're talking plausibility keep descriptive n


ormative prescriptive separate 're talking norm people like seek n't mean people consistently seek norm people course deceive looking diver like independent sources 're talking 're talking prescriptive strategy want clear yeah people think 're best 're best tend tend seek reasons 've given yeah okay next converge construct well construct well construct ca n't list features talked right right like bird features structural functional organization structural functional organization afford well talked last time give optimal grip phenomena right give way optimally gripping world need convergence structural functional organization helps get uh optimal grip world solving problems okay yeah 'm following 'm following think um jargon may less someone n't following conversations okay yeah let let give another visual example like last time okay 's object 's remote right uh uh marla ponti well want look want really close get lot detail might far away see whole thing 'm losing detail want look face side want look like notice look back lose face zoom lose gestalt look right 's trade-off relationships answer n't oh find average sit depends task 'm trying perform problem 'm trying solve button sticking want z


ero detail 'm trying get tv whole 'm going gestalty want throw object actually care 's three-dimensional deep like really flat flimsy right 's well 's optimal gripping 're time 're cognitively 's walk street um unless 're like particular expert particular expert context 'll point animal say 's dog eleanor ross rather saying 's cocker spaniel north america 's mammal go sit 's called basic level gives us best trade-offs right way 's like things way 's different things detail gestalt 're time trying optimally grip time okay yeah finding balance specificity generality also know read tweet 're looking object degree 're perceiving 'm perceiving glasses right could looking 's trade-off relationship 'm looking 'm looking 'm looking ca n't looking look pattern look pattern n't answer goes back relevance realization machinery want trustworthiness comes construct fitting relevance realization machinery 's trying things okay yes good okay kind things want well generally goes another phenomena people talk science elegance think scientists actually care lot elegance simplicity even though occam 's razor invoked time personal money 's almost always pair simplicity


elegance together something elegant something elegant 's 's construct 's trustworthily formed form optimally gripping use find formulate problems many different domains affords insight forwards notice 'm 'm opposite instead converging want widely divergent insight 's like f force equals mass times acceleration newton ex talk planetary motion talk car collisions talk balloons rising app wow things disparate talk using force equals mass times acceleration 's 's 's 's consider elegant use way finding formulating problems many different domains affords 's called effectiveness insight gets see significance information construct want afford us able intervene systematic manner reality judge realness things trustworthiness optimal grippiness power afford us intervene reality reliable systematic ways mean explanatory predictive ways neither mean mean 're talking science mean explanatory predictive right um predictive means sort predict world 's going unfold explanatory means give significance patterns prediction explanation possibility actually creating interventions um ultimately want able understand want able intervene world deepest possible understanding 's argument 's opposite bullshitting okay convergence trustworthiness converge


optimal grip want divergence elegance okay far yeah yeah establish going jermaine argument justifying mystical transformations okay would mistaken simplifying elegance um explanatory predictive um depends mean mean lot plausibility n't propositional level plausibility also degree trait like particular construct know kuhn others pointed gives sets skills world science like opens often things want careful 're often believed explain also train train particular sets skills allow scientists field work make new kinds observations give rules tools 'll like construct like 'll like construct gives rules 'll like construct gives tools gives tools rules well like 've got e equals mc squared 've got massive explanatory thing relativity also allows make atomic weapons 'm making ethical claim 's powerful tool right one reasons believe know relativity precisely wow know really odd counter factual counter intuitive thing take paper clips worth matter could smash city ground want clear mean broaden tools rules yes something like yeah yeah get get expansion 'm curious something came mentioned crosstalk uh progress presupposing um ontology good 're progressing mean brought counterexample tool effective even 's even 's detrimental presuppositio


etween thinkers space really really fun thank much uh schlep dialogue oh welcome 'm glad hear 're finding home think belong uh 're uh enlivening community uh much presence thank um 'll review 're wo n't review three episodes like 'll enough would take us episode want uh 've uh last uh zevi basically asked present argument mean contentious terms whether 's true means basically argument rationality mystical experience especially particular kind mystical experience 'm interested called higher states consciousness tend bring transform deep transformative uh uh experience within individuals transform identities lives say standpoint cognitive science um uh want reiterate want 's cardinal science says enter dialogue people kinds traditions say mystical experience 'm trying monopolize discourse around think say enriching feed back sort two moves needed made got first sort set second review quickly first 's account needs descriptively adequate need give account uh first 've got make sure get phenomenological description higher states consciousness said last time 'll repeat 'm claiming mystical experiences higher states consciousness 'm talking particular kind mystical experience


n progress 's mean mean depends topic 'm talking plausibility general move back science think science science presupposes epistemic progress n't think science presupposes moral progress um 's sort long discussion could get n't think scientists um presuppose way epistemic progress mean epistemic progress means sorry 'm going invoke 're trying discharge 's plausible build previous knowledge right 's general advance cultural ratcheting real phenomena cultural ratcheting means unlike organisms n't start scratch knowledge build knowledge kind thing fallible discover revise yes nevertheless seem engaging constant cultural ratcheting whether 'm 'm spencerian darwinist anything like social darwinism n't think 's necessary connection cultural ratcheting moral progress become unglued yeah yeah think good evidence yes yes good okay trustworth trustworthiness uh sorry conversions trustworthiness optimal gripping divergence elegance balance goes work elijah milgram also empirical work namely 're gon na 're gon na really apply construct many different areas want extremely trustworthy right see want balance 's going apply much n't require much trustworthiness say really like vanilla ice cream okay like 's gon na like 's gon na open world profound way n't need lot trustworthy evidence uh cl deposit like vanilla ice cream even like lot


say instead think reality ultimately temporal 's like okay mean like would change think many things approach many problems 'm going need lot right know know sagan sort invoked people get wrong trying invoke extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence 's trying say 's balancing process okay yeah saying sagan terms claim people invoke claim 's 's claim comes formal logic mathematics carl sagan made claim extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence means 'm going 'm going pause something tremendous elegance 's extraordinary 's going cause reformulate solve many problems think many domains 'm going need n't need quantity 'm going need lot convergent evidence make construct 'm using trustworthy 's saying logically epistemically socially 's making claim 'm making claim 'm making claim epistemically 's claim uh 's basically cognitive claim uh think elegance risk-taking 're elegance 're committing limited attentional cognitive resources right framing world 'm going relevance realization 're committing 're caring world particular way means 're taking great 's risk 's always risk 're commit forward want seen milgram puts way forward commitments backward commitments 'm risking forward right want trustworthy thing mitigate risk yeah


kay 'm um want say terms vanilla ice cream think reason n't need lot good supportive evidence 's obvious vanilla better know everything 's chocolate better okay due respect 're priority certainty okay let 's take milgram right balance three things right basically convergence elegance balance pivot 're balancing sort know optimal gripping kind coherence n't mean logical coherence mean optimally gripping kind coherence okay notice happens upset balance happens get lot convergence much elegance well 'll see people scientific articles time 's 's triviality triviality something notice accuse somebody saying something trivial 're saying 're saying something false fact 're saying 's saying often say 's truism way indicating course 's true would doubt point 're making 's 's insightful 's opening anything right one ways screen things say n't take seriously things trivial yeah okay opposite lots elegance little convergence well 's things far-fetched 's 's people reject conspiracy theories right idea would accept english royal family actually lizard beings space look explain behavior like trustworthy proposal also reject things 're far-fetched right see scientists time 'll say well 's far-fetched 's 's beyond p


ale 're well know people saying know could wrong course 'm denying 's point previous argument okay fall back also things kind bullshitting equivocate one things um uh daniel dennett talks phenomena called deepity dpd like deepity people say things like love four letter word idea 've got convert 've got massive convergence graphic reality love four-letter word right 've got right claim well love n't know love n't anything important would huge implications claim truth 's four-letter word truth uh unimportant thing human life 're 're 're 're 're convergence one meaning equivocate meaning get elegance get dpd lot bullshitting kind deepity reverse called mot baby strategy people time say something sounds provocative challenging people criticize retreat something 's trivial non-controversial people see people time right um remember like friend believe ghosts believe ghosts mean mean sometimes people grieving hallucinate loved ones said oh okay 's martin bailey right right like first one would incredible 'd change whole ontology second one trivial yeah course makes sense 's nothing okay 'm showing make frame rational evidence-based processing using plausibility filters 's lots


f like say evidence argument around 's 's sort first argument argument indispensability irremovability plausibility rationality yeah think 's helpful think 's well made thank think uh last thing pointed nice able show 's often used rhetoric seem convincing actually look based metric see falls exactly short 's 's helpful point fallacies well uh work jason show uh 're talking um understanding different knowledge people mean understanding something distinct knowing difference know something based evidence uh right whereas understanding grasp significance relevance know yeah best way grasp significance use plausibility try grasp relevance fits plausibility matrix 'm going pay attention trustworthy optimally gripping elegant balanced algorithm guarantee truth gives trustworthiness gives elegance gives balance gives optimal grip yeah 's 's interesting stretching common uh sense usage word little talk plausibility also affords elegance um people think think word possibility um 're thinking first side 's 's plausible lot good independent sources evidence discount kinds things like n't n't know people would naturally think second direction falling mean 's continuum let 's remember things


's technical sense plausible long 's balance notice ice cream thing actually plausible 's little elegance require little trustworthiness notice friends phrase say makes good sense 's act making people start find lot plausibility start invoke another term think going relevant discussion start talking profundity 's profound means 's highly plausible 's made previous point 's highly plausible generating lot understanding say something profound n't mean 's true contradiction saying profound turned false yeah yeah yeah yeah 'm 'm extension plausibility interaction follow logic great okay 've established idea plausibility profundity want argue processes saw work higher states consciousness actually make give us need order make plausibility argument higher states consciousness plausible plausibly yeah plausibly prescriptive argument remember talked see processes yeah go ahead say much appreciate like much time effort 're putting establishing term basic possibility whereas many could like okay let 's assume know possibilities let 's move right talk mysticism think think care diligence 're putting um speaks volumes concern issue thank thank saying mean n't want performative contradiction want make plausible case plausibility 'll allow right um want uh exemplifying thing 'm advocating um


remember gave sort cognitive continuum um thesis um daniel greg done work people well people converged hypothesis basic argument know 's empirical evidence mystical experience part higher states consciousness something like uh well profound insight 's insight insight basic level processing talked sort meta optimal gripping uh 're getting flow state remember made distinction hot cool flow 're like cool flow state sort met primordial skill meta optimally gripping getting getting optimal grip capacity take specific optimal grips world systemically systematically much like child goes 're going developmental stage made argument last time 've got um mystical experiences enhancement insight capacity argument n't quite make 's also part flow work leo ferraro erin bennett flow experience also enhancement implicit learning want little bit argument explicitly right 's okay yes idea 's lot plausible evidence capable implicit learning pick patterns complex patterns could n't ca n't hold working memory nevertheless pick track lot empiric experimental evidence decades well replicated um know 's even starting pervade general sort public awareness 're 're 're lot implicit pattern detection hogarth wrote really important book called educating intuition


title really important main proposal intuition intuition get results implicit learning 'm picking implicit patterns n't know 'm 's 's explicit right nevertheless 'm getting 'm picking pattern people start make judgments patterns 'll intuitions use com know non-controversial examples 'll go particular context know far stand away far close stand various people room probably never went explicit standing room school okay person two notches status funeral stand distance away 're level stand 're two notches 're backyard party 're allowed like nobody taught right probably ca n't even remember know know feel wrong 're standing far close somebody particular context get intuition say like call intuition n't like call bias prejudice 's sort thing 're implicit learning 's problem 's two problems implicit learning 's called educating intuition two problems implicit learning n't distinguish picks complex pattern n't distinguish correlational patterns actual causal patterns 's pick patterns like far stand party also pick weird correlations know make might make racist bigot right n't distinguish well correlation causal patterns secondly 's picks generated patterns 've 've experienced n't consider possible patterns okay okay improve implicit learning get better


intuitions lot behavior driven intuition well hogar said well want want want try bring something like scientific method scientific method method use distinguish causal patterns correlational patterns make predictions descriptions okay mean well n't mean implicit learning scientifically would explicit would contradiction means try set context within 're implicit learning features scientific experiment okay features well want tight feedback behavior environment 's like type feedback independent dependent variable need clear remember talked confounds need clear feedback need need know able clearly measure dependent variable error matters able find thesis false error really matters okay clear tightly coupled feedback error matters okay 's 's 's context 'll get best intuitions get let 's go chick sent high work flow experience already talked 's already bridging insight mystical experiences right said characteristics need envi uh like like said skills meeting demands stuff like well said characteristics need terms information flow said need clear tightly coupled uh feedback error matters exact three three things improve chance getting implicit learning picks causal patterns three things also likely turn experience flow experience proposal made flow giving feedback


're best kind implicit learning okay 'm best kind implicit learning forming best intuitions problem implicit learning looks existing patterns remember argued last time flow also insight cascade insight gets consider whole new ways framing things yeah flow insight cascade opens things n't thought yet 's place 're getting best intuitions complex patterns environment flow something really improves performance proves right 'm going use general term 's de-automatizing cognition profound way let 's note go back points dankman yes ultimate uh think ultimate origin 's lots evidence mindfulness practices uh de-automatize cognition thereby afford insight afford flow etc okay deontomatization well 's evidence getting radical know reduction way world deceiving misleading 're getting best intuitions best ins 're really improving problem solving capacities right 're flowing something transfer many domains like meta optimal grip getting something 's trustworthy 's really improving processing 's going apply many different problem domains okay far yes good okay next thing talked last time 'm higher states consciousness argument know higher states consciousness remember something like cool flow uh meta optimal gripping would know basically oriented problem 're solving world whole right kind thing okay also talked things decenter decentering remember


know quite bit empirical evidence uh psychological cognitive scientific theory know predictive people transforming lives 'm interested overlaps concern wisdom main concern mystical experience overlap cultivation wisdom 'm claiming exhaustive 'm claiming 's important higher states consciousness first 's phenomenological description would descriptive atticus would could explain phenomena right phenomenological characteristics terms well understood cognitive processes made argument around things like insight flow decentering things like basically made zebby uh know excellent um know uh skeptical also supportive interlocutor wonderful dance uh well think exemplary 'm 'm going take uh case descriptive adequacy made plausible um want move uh prescript prescriptive adequacy prescriptive adequacy say yes 's genuinely case experiences occur explain occur different thing 's 's descriptive adequacy prescriptive adequacy yet yeah people pursue 's different thing justifiable pursue something would rationally recommend another human 's prescriptive adequacy want make argument um actually make good prescriptive case people want qualify later right context right way etc right boldly people pursue uh seeking kinds experiences uh 'll allow gesture towards friend 'm gon na prescribe people seekers


moves egocentrism want reduce egocentrism reduces bias automatization reduces bias centering reduces bias improvement fluency flow improves functioning knowing 'm 'm giving lots reasons experience trustworthy lots things flowing telling 're lot highly convergent fashion reducing biasing processing yeah okay yes okay let 's go let 's elegance well 's right notice 'm going get remember said going give like insight right 's going something like kind insight children go developmental stage massively elegant 's going generalize right 's going 're finding nexus insight kind meta insight insight many different ways might misframing world fundamental way 's elegant remember elegance without stuff 's worry elegance backed significant trustworthiness 's elegant brain kind processing 's engaging complexification 's getting state called metastability simultaneously integrating differentiating information powerfully say mean john remember optimal gripping 'm trying get best relationship integrating forest differentiating different trees 're getting happening together metastability system complexifying good well put bit slogan best way tracking uh know complex world get cognition state ongoing complexification reliably coupled world complexifies right constrained world complexifies two together going happen


capacity influence almost problem solving almost always 're facing complex ill-defined problems real world point complexification becomes excessive detrimental well mean yeah general systems collapse roman empire kept solving problems complexifying problem one point roman empire becomes complex becomes problem complex problems roman empire trying solve collapses resources start get directed towards trying deal 's 's get endemic civil war inflation blah blah blah system ca n't come sort complexify uh beyond 's said coupled 's one minute flow stuff important right right ca n't complexify independent ability uh uh solve problems environment yeah coupled complexification yeah think think 's important point think know um sort forms complexity complexification either lives people know represent lost complexification capacity go get job buy groceries exactly 's exactly right 're losing elegance lose complexity 's structural functional organization complexity state right elegant ca n't apply many different domains find formulate problems many different domains 's precisely 're losing complexity costing elegance right 's think occam 's razor way simplify point 've got sort optimal elegance kind thing analogous maps onto trustworthiness occam 's razor way sorry complex people uh think okay 've got notice complexify


ou get new functions 's point like know main relationship reality adaptivity able evolve means introduce variation difference select integrate together complexification gives new functions continue ability adapt constantly changing environment yes goes fact remember talked higher states consciousness like insight pers preceded often disruptive strategies goes machine learning talked last time like 're neural networks 're trying get learn environment periodically throw noise disruptive strategies n't 'll fit data 'll lose ability generalize yes okay yeah okay go ahead go ahead think think interesting think 's particularly interesting um technical 're trying lay commendable great effort 's simple break something concession point finally commendable 's 's spinosistic element well think think think think together 's also deep um keep repeating keeps occurring 's deep um sense realness 're talking think examples lives lives others things happen either positive negative 're going see things function know means like something fitting tightly data therefore useless think think 's 's relationship well optimal grip specific specific specificity technicality layout also relatability real world quite


'm glad 'm glad hope 'm hoping 's case talked fact know 's fundamental ah aspect experience diminishment self normally perceived negatively experiences 's perceived positively right propose idea machinery self exacted well right instead 's called glue cognition perception memory use glue world um together better potentially intuit implicitly learn insightful manner deeper patterns reality otherwise inaccessible us notice 've given 've given lots convergence meta optimal grip state right 's proposal construct 's highly elegant terms 's improving capacity cognitive agent 's balance 's profound justification plausibility becomes profound 's lots convergence 's tremendous elegance 's tremendous optimal gripping 've made highly plausible means 's profound means 's profound improvement cognitive agency justification ever give claiming something rational improvement cognitive agency 's 's 's beautiful one one objection come mind 're refer experience experience 're calling experience higher state consciousness affords uh real radical transformation um transformative higher states consciousness might objection 're selecting one narrow form uh might fall umbrella mystical experience um therefore therefore playing might fallacy spoke earlier making good case one thing switching broadening right right


hat 's first uh limit trying talk specific thing uh think agreed mystical mysticism mystical experience family resemblance theory 's 's got lot overlapping things running like game would want say um one way arguing um justifiable methodologically limit uh 's lots data secondly experiences track way people two things need prescriptive make significant changes identity life right say right things way sort uh least interpersonal intersubjective perhaps 'd bolder say objective measures actually getting actually making lives selves better mean 's kind work 's coming yaden whole bunch work uh people getting better might saying n't things called mystical experiences people come 're kind crazy um well goes towards point want made methodological argument want make another argument um already negotiating 'm going say slightly provocative way know 'll call right 'll present presented presented past 're talking something like cultivation wisdom 're talking something much like rationality particular theoretical claim 're talking improvement skills obviously states mind ultimately identity 're talking improving procedural perspectival participatory knowing kinds improvements um plausible improvements occur 've made case 's plausible improv


ements occur justifies cultivating yeah 's 'd say people come experiences derive kinds crazy propositional beliefs claims um fact say diametrically opposite things people come like said favorite example reading taylor know one person goes comes reports know 's god 're relieved another person comes said know 's god 're relieved 're happy get mystical experience without psychedelics 're likely find personal god whereas inside psychedelic um thing 're likely find personal thing like universe one right right 's big contrasts know god n't entity personal 's impersonal metaphysics go like right tend say justification higher states consciousness terms plausibility improvement wisdom transfer justification metaphysical claims made 's happening critic 're giving voice well people come say kinds crazy crap 's like yeah n't try put justification higher states propositional theory try put know sapiential improvement skills states consciousness mind identity yeah want clear want clear two things one one slight disagreements know think 's think 's good space difference us yes respect humility welcoming difference 's think tremendous um get want want circle back clarify previous point fair


say prescriptive um case 're making 're making case mysticism mystical experiences er everything 's called mystical experiences whole 're making case specifically transformative higher states consciousness curtail 's case um um begging question 're making case transformative um ground transformative 're discluding variation transformative problem might problem think know 're saying um want make clear 'm quite circle 'm trying take seriously people claim uh lead transformation sorry want make justify making transformations 've made objective measures improve lives justify saying touch really real want touch justify transformations undertaking transformations terms higher states consciousness many ways know axial religions kind move right know um justifies touch really real fashion onto normativity 's thing 'm 's thing 'm specifically interested experiences actually provide justification transformation 's specific question think 're asking 'm quite n't see quite circle however think 's point 're making well n't excluding wacky things n't know adjective use uh right n't afford transformation part want say make different kind argument historical argument see 's plausibility argument see convergence across cultures across


ime idea deep relationship mystical experience cultivation wisdom 'm invoking something 's sort outside historical convergence 's like look traditions look way keep zeroing thing could justify experience afford cultivation wisdom 'm actually invoking something think historical argument 's highly plausible argument look convergence look fact converges know idea end might justify uh claims transformation make case able reliably improve human lives hmm yeah think way clever made historical claim turned historical claim propositional claim phrased wisdom uh one could price going claim transformations coupled n't know encounter divine know exposed propositionally metaphysically uh well played however like like like said 've already previous videos series 've given ground 'm thinking know take certain propositional theoretical claims also taken seriously trustworthy plausible state plausibly sapiential state mystical experience convergence historical convergence towards idea mystical experience presupposes presupposes deep fact 'm going profound intelligibility intelligibility realness bound together made argument ask must world like intelligibility could exist yes 'm reading gerson 's book ancient epistemology says know '


sort primary question primary question n't could possibly know like humor descartes question let 's let 's let 's presuppose intelligibility exists 's presupposed everything else must world like 's intelligible think propositions derivable must world like order kind intelligibility disclosed mystical experiences also must cognition like order able pick pursue kind intelligibility think theoretical claims come way yeah think think 's think 's 's fine point think 're going see upcoming upcoming conversations 're looking convergence rational real phrases might 's point abstract uh okay might maybe maybe try yeah please something bit simpler think like 's convergence um ways 're lining think 's also converge metaphysical propositional convergence um amongst mystics um ancient contemporary cultures co-influenced far understand influenced think think metaphysical convergence also plausibility also engages um affordances real world um even far proposition goes something worth paying attention think focusing um 'm sure quoted focusing divergence proposition oh um know god know god know santa claus real know um 's 's simply think think 's facile um um dismissal proposition metaphysical claims think better would important


done um assumption uh assumption proposition might think think might sort claim towards unity nonduality subject object knowing known however 's going phase mean metaphysically might put full-blown monism sort even needing go far think better question would participants think done contemporaneously historically thing realize god thing realize relationship thing put money would oh felt really warm felt reminded felt really unified thing felt really um present presence embraced um would think would said none um 's 's 's 's 's would counter argument using using probabilistic argument metaphysical claim towards entity deity simply texture qualia relationship bets think evidence points 's 's towards unitive agree um um trying point towards know propositions ultimately intelligibility 's right yes um notice historical argument convergent structural argument cognitive scientific argument already flow states people talking one minute 've given case 's fluff ephemeral points real improvement real picking real patterns reality know think um think 's right think um guess disagree think real questions uh think real debates theis


unity uh justifiable rationally justifiable uh recommendation 's basically want 'm gon na presume case descriptive adequacy met today 'm going try zevi 's know critical interaction make case prescriptive adequacy experiences say wisdom say connection reason etc sound sepic yeah think 's great summary think 's important case make think 're beginning see renaissance resurgence importance mysticism topic popular culture think lot thinking legwork actually make plausible case um prescriptive way 're saying think think lot work last time helpful maybe place people already uh willing accept 're going actually quite bit saying accept happens even understand happens scientifically case 's 's least plausible case yeah um yeah 'd like 'd like try aim interlocution aim aim towards intelligent well-read random person street yeah um 're presupposing metaphysics 're presupposing religious conviction 're presupposing anything um 're intelligent curious skeptical 's 're preaching 's 's fit description yeah totally agree one presumption 'm going make case descriptive adequacy made yes video 's publicly available 'll links ca n't repeat yes wo n't wo n't get wo n't get underway okay 'm gon na argument plausib


non-theism example mystical experiences john hick talks interpretation religion um whether right um mystics course gotten hot water historically cross-culturally cross-historically right um whether experience one minute ultimately best understood non-theistically theistically um think variation uh reason say worried 'm accusing 're sensitive 're careful want pay compliment back paid know kind pernicious kind perennialism kind ethnocentrism right religions somehow versions like abrahamic religions think 's something want want open possibility uh know buddhism taoism sunyata dao also ways talking careful bracket said know 're making claims particular entity think 's right 's problem 'm trying 'm kind counter problem problem 's 's also case mystic stays within mystical experience mystic almost always katz 's whole point mystic always also tries weave sometimes conforming sometimes trying transform tries weave religious framework religious heritage therefore makes lot claims sort specific claims specific entities specific uh know obligations entities things like 's see tremendous variation n't 'm trying acknowledge yeah yeah 'm saying something different 'm acknowledging variation 'm 'm trying say 's homogeneity


yeah right reputational experience 'm trying say variation um um similarity 's might good case make discount distal focus united claims 'm explicitly attempt include um every form buddhism taoism 'm 'm making abrahamic name 'm making name transcendental personal theistic object think think mystics even within traditions end sounding like atheists anything else agree 'm think cats wrong um cats right points 're going interpreted inevitably frameworks katz catch article know uh clever erudite reading 's like oh well kabbalist talking tense furored daoist talking things nothing one another could anything cats give analogy let 's say let 's say 's ten people walking road right see tree um come back together port tree one like oh well know bark really brown one 's like oh leaves really green one says oh roots really red 's like oh gosh 's 's redness 's greenness 's congruity 's nothing 's coarse 's nothing experience 's nothing um look look narratives right cats cat 's famous cat 's article instead listing differentiations oh look 's god god female partner look 's god 's nothing else instead let 's focus claim making fundamental unity individual uh unit


es real david lloyd makes case well buddha include buddhists implosion subject subject object distinction either implode outwards sorry explode outwards employed inwards self self developing non duality uh makes really great case think think 'm trying make particulars claim one proposition uh towards one specific interpretive know religious things inevitable think look beneath surface um look tree beyond differences seen great good could make 've made recommendation think 's good 's recommendation 'm going make basis recommendations ultimately 're 're mean john hicks 're facing finite ambiguous data 're making judgments similarity dissimilarity nelson goodman like showed 's algorithm 's ultimately based well relevant thing relevant thing two objects logic logically indefinitely large like similar definitely large dissimilar would want say okay 're 're pointing universals right would say use independent historical convergence argument traditional way 's done aldous huxley perennialism right say 's another way looking universals science cognitive science come right argument 've run argument 've run constrain kind similarities 're looking historical record n't find oh happens almost mystics men ah 's something male well tha


's ridiculous 's 's irrelevant similarity right look relevant similarities 'm saying 're 'm 'm 'm trying dismiss 'm saying need justify 're picking similarity relevant important say well lines another way look universals science descriptive discovery universals also comes prescriptive argument improves people 's cognition universal manner 's 'm actually recommending yeah yeah think think think 're agreement 'm 'm trying make uh exclusive claim way reach think think 's uh 's many think important part think discounting metaphysics proposition simply 's incongru incongruity um would would reason discount everything else think think needs part rest con congress agree 'm claiming agree 's intersection cognitive scientific argument uh cross-historical argument cross-contextual argument tells well 's connection point think 's 'm trying justify zeroing intelligibility intelligibility one minute zeroing 's important similarity well leap sort historical question begging saying look one minute intelligibility given completely independent explanation uh c cognitive scientific framework 's uh mean know awakening media crisis 'm always trying get intersection historical arguments structural argumen


ts try thereby give sort notice 'm convergence argument 'm trying generate increased possibility absolutely guess want say though um wanted guess want really want really respectful sensitive 've said hand want culture obsessed propositions right 's really obsessed propositions um infra inference part 'm trying argue let try way 'm trying argue rationality experiences reliably improve ability get contact 's real right right relationship think 's ultimate obligation rationality 's ultimate know obligation logos um tried argue right forms rationality go outside propositional inferential rationality yeah reason 's central argument goes wanted bring 's work l.a paul literally wrote book transformative experience main argument makes propositionally infer way transformative experience n't work ca n't um drop perspectival participatory knowing uses slightly different terms 've mapped terms presence happy 'm worried um think agnes callard talked proleptic rationality idea whenever 're going significant developmental transformation infer way mean goes back old argument folder ca n't infer stronger logic weaker logic ca n't need 're trying get people go transformation even becoming infere


ntially rational non-inferential way go acquisition rationality right think saying like mystic give us inferential content significant degree 's ineffable right terms know profound ways instead making worrying thing makes us say oh 's probably rational 's way saying 've got independent argument 's really affording transformation way 's rationally justifiable say 's good thing points kind proleptic rationality actually needed undergo transformation yeah kind rationality use justify transformation inferential argumentative rationality 's proleptic aspirational rationality yeah yeah hear 's saying get appreciate wonder mean think think may employed sort ancient analogy gnosis yes knowing propositional um appreciate appreciate desire distance propositional day age 've become overly propositioned yeah little bit tongue-in-cheek expression um well reason wan na wan na sort wan na response kind knee-jerk reaction well 's know n't offer arguments point experience therefore 's rational 's like 've misunderstood 've given taking place outside propositional know work look tight arguments l.a paul agnes callard jerry fodor even came computational cognitive science right right ca n't think neural networks throwing noise overcome overfitting 's non-inferential non-proposition use


se strategies order become rational process becoming rational ca n't irrational process makes sense 's deep performative contradiction processes make us rational included definition rationality processes 've pointing yeah would say outside propositional um ways mystic tries point transformation um may performative may evocative maybe um whether 's mean see see happening poetry see happening art see see happening way live forth things would include well part much much mean know child adult adult sage know know proverb growing n't know 's still around know uh children pay attention much say right 're mot 're internalizing comprehensive model procedural perspectival participatory 're identifying 're getting meta perspectival ability central wisdom internalizing perspective catch skills catch points view going much profound um propositional admonitions admonitions n't spoken n't matter 'm saying know know 's much say therefore uh 's much likely mystic going going convey x exemplification rather pure explanation fact 're going tailor explanations constantly service provocative ex exemplification 're going engaging kind performative contradiction yes yeah think think think 's true think think also stand


think stands historically true statement thing know 're really tricky question question yes yes know n't choose parents 's largely matter luck know lot people suffer poor luck question comes know choose sage um um 's 's part caution around trying get parochial say 's particular know know metaphysical world view look sage take question seriously um 's really really like work 're like n't right word really appreciate work 're 're careful reflection afford people chance making choice let 's clear choice believe propositions choice internalize somebody exemplar terms 're going aspire greater wisdom greater one minute reality think sounds like know 's self-promotional know every everything 's self-promotional right point 'm trying make kinds kind deal logos really really really important choose everything 've said comes 've got choose right sage deal logos trains us procedurally perspectively participatory fashion get clear relationship right relationship people make best machinery disposal choose sages 're going internalize 's pivotal question else going find school 'm sorry mean belong university science matters important school school right question


ultimately going turn going n't mean one could one know get one gets problematic anyways right 's going exemplar 's 's almost like kirker guardian existential choice like ca n't ca n't make running like reading propositions try bring life give voice welcome living dear logos sorry 'm going something question yeah think 's great tangent want want um really agree disagree okay uh one 'll begin agreeing [ Laughter ] disagreement grievous enough egregious enough least 'll least 'll chance agree okay um point point like agree first um repay compliment think um propositions received john 've put lot proposition work lot good evidence 're man science 's uh really really terrific 's 's experience relation experiencing care concern generosity humiliating conversation 's um transformative um thing last longer 's point first personal agreement uh returning compliments thank disagree okay um um think 'm wondering seems like 've made bit leap um n't done work show 'm acknowledging real possibility happened okay okay okay think leap think think necessity um proleptic participatory 's positional experiencing hearing n't know necessarily um logical necessity must done


um internalizing teacher finding guru put know history mr system happens time tradition 's something shoved throat must must must guru um 'm going preempt something may answer know 's good empirical evidence benefit transformational journey within sapiential community 's think clear plain maybe even common sense point want perhaps rest case get back fundamental level believe um reality um fundamentally intelligible come optimal grip ultimate grips reality um lead transformative psychological experiences leads us sage seems foundation level able achievable anyone germane reality existence reality human relationship fact need things may help may great guru maybe great community fact need um 'm seeing 'm seeing work 'm yeah 's fair enough mean lesson take 's good 'm also going hold open possibility friend jordan hall likes say next buddha sangha exemplar might community rather individual um clear um 's sense know within christianity distinction jesus individual church body christ purposely blurred towards good end lot cases um want acknowledge 's happening 's something 's happening mystical tradition 's intentional um leadership um trying force community become leader another time okay


le uh plausibly justified uh prescription plausible prescription 'm going start first talking mystical experiences want talk first notion plausibility um 'm invoking justifiable invoke first want get clear really important plausibility 'm going take something people would find far mystical experience transformation show much depends possibility namely scientific experimentation okay contemporary thinking critical functioning yep 's problem face 're going scientist well-established thing 's lots existing argument 'll give intuitive always working finite data sets course think non-controversial science point going back reichenbach finite data set 's indefinitely large number equally logically good theories explaining course one problems uh 's called determination problem um 's non-controversial many people talk um well wow gather evidence shift new finite data set new set right actually uh kicks road issue address ca n't test theories combinatorial explosive following things yet another instance know indispensability relevance realization people lots consensus around idea scientists something like inference best explanation grasp take hold sort best 'll come back sec best theories compete explain data put sort tests elegance fruitfulness clarity etc inference b


good want clear um yeah implicit bias want uh sort give explicitly right n't sage n't like individual say buddha sanger use jordan 's uh perspicacious way 's great 's great phrasing yeah first acknowledge secondly um could make argument 'm think core bias 's called side bias sort egocentrism um problem problem perspective 're perspective hard see perspective biasing 's hard acquire interests outside prolactic aspirational interests exceed um let uh exceed perspective remember talked solomon effect centering right right right um people n't spontaneously right 've trained able take perspective others precisely 're cultural beings autonomous beings let 's put background want talk experiment right goes towards experiment runs something like bring chimp um phase one experiment 's box 's completely opaque 's 's levers buttons push flip like candy comes bottom like grape something chimp really likes 's really cool watch experiment show chimps sequence like twice chimp replicates 's bad like really impressive wow take chip bring four-year-old like four-year-old girl right sort sort get human flag go human come right right thing open pig box stuff show


girl twice replicate sequence go right oh 's good go second phase experiment bring chimp back box completely transparent 's plastic chimp sees movements except last one absolutely nothing 's last movement releases grape twice chips sort almost ca n't see look right last thing right 're given chance get grape like none 's anything right bring little girl transparent twice little girl repeats everything adult think oh human beings stupider chimps think trusting 's perspective n't purchase reality n't long term 's going compete chimp 's going able grow perspective chimp locked 's brilliant perspective 're smart animals 'm trying fact 's really impressive thing 's far goes right little girl access 'm proposing people indispensable way acquire capacity self-transcendence without perspectives 're place chimp 'll say 'll generate perspectives 's hard within perspective 's 's interesting idea 's interesting idea think many reasons one relies upon real acknowledgement perspective yeah maybe think ahead little um positions embrace forms monistic idealism may hard get mind 're


nly mined large yeah yeah yeah yeah may become sticky 'll would like talk bernardo point um yeah uh um although think think anticipate would say 'm right 'm already running beautiful dance oh 's 's lovely like 's lovely um yeah mean 'm sort burden proof argument 'm giving 'm like 'm admitting 've done lot 're community people continue like 's internalization n't know internalization get metaperspectival ability n't know proposed explanation good plausibility n't self-referential 's interesting lot lot mysticism um know old tripod um typology mysticism much used scholars anymore god mysticism sol mysticism nature mysticism think 's zener one one earlier fellows interesting remains true reason gave tripod um taksani much mystical experience triggered specifically communion minds nature um n't know whether points um evidence able done individually 's sort pan psychic um attachment mind nature seems phenomena mean 's 's obviously total isolation community people nature also talking people seems sort hot hot box um mysticism happens nature yeah think 's right first like yeah idea people already internalized another capacity perspectives know 're going get lot nature mysticism exampl


e four-year-old something like um typically um right pretty pretty universal fact thing remember n't evolve nature related impersonal order evolved nature actually filled minds predators prey potentially human beings right nature capacity mean people even extended within cognitive science overly reductive account religion religion hyper active agency detector machine wherever 's ambiguous information project agent 's get god um well think plausibly work factor trying reduce religion think really overly reductive nevertheless idea nature think socialized significant enough degree powerfully like expose us perspectives 's want add minds perspectives human think 's one ways debbie paused recording couple seconds um oh technology god limps um um making argument uh nature precisely puts us know plethora minds many non-human actually tremendous capacity uh decenter us also put us flow state kinds things um internalize way um strikes plausible um 's probably going need basic training meta-perspectival ability 're going need way grocking natural environment 's internalizable rather sort chaotic know minds sort like ecology basically 's got something ecologizes world 's internalizable think could make good case incorporated '


saying yeah 'm hearing 'm hearing um 'm hearing direction possibility argument uh necessarily necessity argument um well yeah mean uh 'm trying preclude might something think also mind-like things ecology like say forest um know uh alicia uraro makes argument get got sort get mind like dynamical system state narrative things order pick know implicit learning picking complex dynamic patterns may use imaginal strategies like children use imaginal strategies develop requisite identities skills states mind um think like doubt simply dropped somebody completely foreign environment nature would necessarily trigger mystical experience think 'd probably overwhelmed proper education enter strikes would plausible uh strikes possible could get mystical experience yeah know know 's interesting 's coming regard 's 's tradition muslim philosophy um think 's two cases 's one rushed think um thought experiment person floating either um 's another one uh 's another one philosophical novel fellow 's dropped island comes enlightenment 's uh islam provides comes back civilization 's sort whole dialogue um mean motif philosopher slash mystic recluse alone alone one come realizations um 's interesting 's interesting 're rejecting um 'll interesting sort see


play um sort long-standing historical motifs space affording capacity get one 's um biases um contact external minds yeah yeah mean 's also case um mean know tradition 'm familiar course uh desert fathers within christianity course n't alone um 're another mind namely mind god know good research simply imagine another perspective especially one greater trigger solomon effect also good evidence capacity imagine n't something sort like carefully cultivated lot ways yes yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah going ask mind god counts another mind certainly seems present many 's actually ca n't remember authors get people pray santa claus know value santa claus n't believe santa claus 're believers get pray god 'll notice 're praying god machinery much brain operating much like 's talking another mind 's case 're praying santa claus 's something going 's 's functional difference least 'm making metaphysical claims god santa claus functional one interesting uh might might interesting line inquiry um terms functionality entity mean 's lot like modern intelligent mysticism want say gut idea one employed mystics try give sense contact functionality argument might interesting think 's wha


concept god provides affordance one trying make contact external mind yeah mean talk imaginal opposed imaginary imaginary 's mental image imaginal like 're pretending 're acting think idea like virtual augmentation like heads-up display put two together get know imaginally augmented reality know use imagina serious play 're trying develop transform imaginable augmentation gets us right functionality get right relationship n't mean particular pretense right sort accurate picturing right pull know thing relationship uh much yeah right right 's 's interesting 's path towards real made case path towards rational must rational 's implication path towards real also uh employ things real yeah right want say um um think way 've done carefully least according uh guess also according uh know argument proleptic rationality higher states consciousness precisely lack content therefore sense impoverished um think could make similar case proleptic rationality imaginal think many ways 's corban trying work think 's work really pivotally important right trying say way like unlike jung corbin much willing repeatedly uh self-identified neoplatonist 's way like ultimately justify uh give pro-proleptic justification


's proleptic rationality serious play ca n't infer way overcome like go transformative experience 've got lot argument deal children go serious play right create play space make procedural perspectival participatory transformations necessary come right relationship real could show 're systemic 're systematic 're reliable realizing justify practice proleptically rational yes yes yes works makes sense uh start wrapping keep going 's going long think think 'm 'm exhausting 's much later n't want keep much longer wanted um thank great job drawing um drawing forth challenging pushing affection respect really appreciated think great place uh sort finish series um 'm looking forward next one guy think 'll uh really really wonderful thank powerfully present participatory partner 've 've done together thank much thank really really appreciate deeply think think 's real challenge try maintain presence balance critical appreciative particularly screen think whole new challenge yeah yeah yeah mean 've learned much um conversation um thank thank think yeah really go quite beautiful conclusion series 's come nice slow gradual nice landing 're


'm possible united think physiology helping come sort red eye landing um real hope one day opportunity see face face hug sit yeah mean 've got 've got ta 've got ta come europe uh israel want see bernardo want see 's kinds people want want meet person much hope n't make conference one days make conference uh 's actually mentioned greg greg enriquez making conference around think 's real idea think uh yeah hopefully 're basically getting released grip covet hopefully anyways next thing 're going 'm excited yes yes think 's going interesting change gears 're 're much slow rigorous tedious think much grasping much poetic hopefully anything conversation conversation well guy indicates 's going lot fun 'm much looking forward yeah 'll 'll 's uh 'll wo n't totally platonic 'll heideggerian platonic guys great benefits anyways 'm going let go go sleep thank much 'll uh 'll send link uh soon uh look forward uh work future good season friend youtube john thank much okay bye bye bye brother welcome everyone voices raviki 'm uh excited uh session um um zevi told last name forgot pronounce uh many know announcements part two uh ongoing discussion uh xavier might call ph


ilosophy cognitive science mysticism say respectively say together disagree 's incredibly rich encountered zevi long ago 's 's funny extended conversation feel like 've 've got know somewhat intimate connection met long met basically met yesterday well person virtually person shortly seen uh brilliant video highly recommend recommended time brilliant video whether spinoza mystic laid carefully careful five-point argument exegetical logically presented fashion reasonable plausible 's right efficient position also agree independent arguments thought well done um highly recommend check uh work 's spinoza 'm intending make way um commented brilliant reached said watched um uh awakening meeting crisis thought start talking uh um think 'd good right zebby took sort uh center stage even though 's stage um uh know talk little bit well channel uh autobiography uh alluded connections maybe open bit 're coming um main projects goals youtube channel uh seekers unity uh um think 's channel higher prominence 'm gon na turn firstly thank much john 's really real pleasure sit talk connect 's 's mean 's 're really fascinating space 're trying find community find conversation find relation find intimacy screens


est explanation problem select theories logically equally explain data well generally goes judgments plausibility let 's clear mean plausibility 's two meanings plausibility confuse cause equivocation one meaning think people sort think although like said 're often confused one meaning plausible synonym highly probable probability something establish right establish either prior mathematics exp establish uh empirically 's meaning make would require us already uh finding probability claims 's science scientific experimentation 's meaning plausibility mean meaning way long-standing traditions studied people going back russia wrestler things like plausibility synonym things 's reasonable makes good sense taken seriously 's worthy attention right notice 's exactly exactly questions facing person wants decide theories 're going put competition go experiment make plausibility judgments reasons reasonable theories ones take seriously uh ones right make good sense uh etc make plausibility judgment select theories 're going put inference best explanation 're running experiment okay 're going run experiment 's problem running experiment well 's kind species something 've already said repeats right 'm running experiment problem 'm trying determine 's